Dallas-Fort Worth Real Estate Investor Club

New to real estate investing...is negative cash flow ever ok?

  • 24 Feb 2016 12:58 PM
    Message # 3842401

    Hi everyone,

    I'm a first time investor and I'm interested in buying and holding a single family home (~3bed/2bath) to rent out in the mid-cities area using a conventional loan.  Unlike most investors, I'm trying to go with a 15 year fixed rate mortgage.  The issue with that is when I calculate my monthly cash flow on the properties I'm interested in I average out to very little positive cash flow to breaking even or having a negative cash flow of around $100 or less.  Is it ok to break even or have a little negative cash flow if it means I'll finish the mortgage sooner?  Any suggestions or advice is much appreciated.  Thanks!

  • 25 Feb 2016 9:18 AM
    Reply # 3844023 on 3842401

    You shouldn't have negative cash flow with a 15 year fixed conventional mortgage provided that you buy in the rental market "sweet spot" and don't over pay. The sweet spot is approx. 100k-150k purchase price. Those homes you should be able to obtain a 1% rent to value of the property provided you don't overpay. It's getting more difficult at the higher values as rent increases are lagging behind climbing sales prices, but I'm still able to do so. I just don't acquire as much inventory as I would like.

    An example: a $150k purchase with 20% down leaves a $120k promissory note, at 3% for a 15 yr. fixed loan the payment in $506 per month. That leaves $994 per month, or $11928 yearly for insurance , ad valorem taxes, vacancy, management fees, maintenance/repairs, and other expenses. Insurance and ad valorem taxes should be no more that $6k. You should cash flow plenty!

    To answer your specific question. Negative cash flow tolerance depends on the property owners overall financial picture. I haven't, but would do a negative cash flow purchase provided the upside was above average and my budget allowed the additional monthly resource outlay.

    In the current market, I don't see a need to acquire residential investment properties that don't cash flow, there are deals that do! The 10% yearly appreciation won't continue and smart investors will have to evaluate acquisitions based on cash flow alone. The income tax advantage of depreciation is a game of pay me now or pay me later when you sell. Remember, the IRS doesn't recover depreciation deductions at the capital gains rate, instead it is recovered at the ordinary income rate which is usually higher.  

  • 25 Feb 2016 10:00 AM
    Reply # 3844073 on 3842401

    Hello Howard,

      How did you do the math on that? There may be a typo. I come up with $506 a month times 15 years equals $91,080. That's $28,920 short of the 120k balance without even factoring in interest.

  • 25 Feb 2016 10:29 AM
    Reply # 3844138 on 3842401

    Thanks Dwayne,

    I made two mistakes, your correct, the math is wrong. The payment would be $829 per month. My second mistake was trusting Bankrate's online calculator.

    Property still cash flows nicely at approx. $2k per year.

    Howard 

  • 25 Feb 2016 1:11 PM
    Reply # 3844480 on 3842401
    Deleted user

    I absolutely would take a negative in order to have more passive income in the long term (or if the net value is positive)… Your house will be paid off in 15 years vs 30 years… Run the numbers, and while the first 15 years will be tough,  from years 16 and beyond, you’re sitting pretty.... You're also building equity faster as well... It gives you a plethora of options sooner... If REI is your only source of income then that’s probably a different story as some of that income may be needed to pay your normal reoccurring bills… It all depends on your level of comfort….

    For me, I ALWAYS look at the long term impact and the net analytics vs a quick pay day (where applicable)… My advice is ironic as 80% of my business involves turning over houses to other investors for a quick paycheck vs passive...... 

    Full Disclosure: I have a full-time career that I count on for my reoccurring bills so my thought process is based on that fact…. 

    -Brian R. Baker, MBA 

    Last modified: 25 Feb 2016 2:49 PM | Deleted user
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